Equity within Urbanism:Why it even matters

So welcome to On the Park Bench, Public Square Conversation. Brought to you by the Congress for the new urbanism on the Park Bench presents interactive conversations with thought leaders in new urbanism and allied fields related to the built environment. And today we have equity within urbanism. Why it even matters with Marcus King and the interviewer and moderator Mallory Butt. So you can register for coming webinars. We have one coming up September the nineteenth on creative place making through art and music. And Wednesday, October, the fourth repairing past harm. The designers and planners have a role. Both of these are 12 noon. As they always are and go to seeing you.org slash resources slash on the park bench to register or find out more. And you can join your join CNU or renew your [email protected] slash memberships. Find out all the benefits of doing that. And of course, check out all the benefits of doing that. And of course, check out Public Square, of doing that. And of course, check out Public Square, CNU, Journal, Online. And today we have we will look at the equity issue with urbanism featuring a young urbanist from Detroit who has made a name for himself in new urbanism in recent years. Marcus King is a licensed architect, practicing urban designer, small-scale developer and educator. His practice is fabric design, where the focus is neighborhood scale projects. He's also a member of the senior board of directors. And Mallory, will be the interviewer and moderator and has 25 years of international work and urban planning and community development as well as a wealth of experience in nonprofit leadership. She's seeing you president. I'm Rob Studeville, editor of Cnu's Public Square. And first there's going to be a presentation by Marcus followed by a discussion with Mallory and Marcus followed by Q&A from the audience. So please use the Q&A function of Zoom to ask your questions as they occur to you and we'll get to them, more and less, more or less in the order. That they are asked. And with that, I'm gonna pass it along to Marcus. Alright, thank you, Rob. I'm gonna share my screen here. And Rob, let me know if everything looks. Looks kosher. Oh, that looks good. Let's get on my end. That looks good. Oh, perfect. Perfect. Alright, let's Let's get into it. It's always a good time when I get to spend. A couple of minutes with. See a couple of 100 so of my best friends in urbanism talking about urbanism and I wanna thank Mallory and Rob for. Getting me this opportunity to talk about. This particular topic. So I'm gonna start. Today with a clip that I think gets at the sort of core sort of 10,000 foot view. Perspective of some of the core. Tenants of Not only this talk, but I think this sort of conversation about this unnecessarily charged word, equity, excuse me. Equity and that we're having in our discussion in our conversation today. So it's only about a minute so I will play this. And I think this is sort of level set and set the stage for us pretty, nicely. Hopefully you guys can hear it. So, that's what we're going to do. Very same time that American refuse to give the Negro in a land. Through an act of Congress. Government was giving away millions of acres of land. The West and the Midwest. Which meant that it was willing to undergird its white peasants from year with an economic floor. But not only did they give the land They built land-grant colleges. With government money to teach them how to farm. Not only that, they provided county agents. To further their expertise in farming. Not only that, they provided low interest rates in order that they could mechanize their farms. Not only that, Today many of these people are receiving millions of dollars in federal subsidies not to fall and they are the very people tending the black man that he ought to lift himself by his own bootstraps. This is what we are faced with. This is the reality now when we come to Washington In this campaign We are coming to get our check. So I, I like showing, that particular clip of Martin at the king because it's one of the sort of, you know to the wayside clips of some of his most prominent speeches. Primarily because it's 10 it tends to be a little bit controversial and talks and talking about subsidies for land. Providing mechanisms. Providing a foundation for how to capitalize best capitalize on land. This entire talk. Is going to be centered around the unique relationship. That, African Americans and indeed other populations demographics of color have had with American land and in the context of this conversation We're specifically talking about for our interest. Urbanism and how urbanism historically throughout the centuries from America's founding has. Has garnered a certain perspective. Within these demographic groups. And so when I last, gave this particular talk, it's in a different version, but when I last gave the synopsis of this particular talk. I ended with the question to myself and to all organized in general. Which is whether we are avoiding solving the problems that we've created and neglected in the places that we already built. And as a result, further exaggerating those problems in doing so. Question. And if we are doing that. Is it because it's simply just really hard? Or is it because the people there or perhaps it's a combination or a mix of these things and other things that are not mentioned. But whatever the reason is the fact of the matter is that folks left or certain folks are left to deal. With these unresolved issues. Of our previously built places. And they are typically the least of us not the least of us in terms of character or intelligence But the least of us in terms of money and in resources and in time. Low income family. There's a good deal of them which are African American. And other groups of color. These folks can't afford to simply pick up and leave to the next peripheral development. Nor is it sustainable to continue to expanding outward when opportunities abound in work. So what does this have to do with urbanism? I think it has to do, everything with urbanism. The buildings we design, the blocks we scale, the neighborhoods we plan and the real estate we develop, whether we realize it or not serve as the backdrop in cities and in towns. For social and economic progress and or problems. Economic vitality as we purport, in our charter, economic vitality, community stability and environmental health can't be sustained without a supportive physical framework that it matters that much more where we build such a framework. Because we are the stewards. That's urbanist and all the different facets and in ways we operate within the both environment because we are the stewards of these backdrops. We are then given a responsibility to go beyond aesthetics, form style ornament, all things that I absolutely love. And things that we are really, really good at. We got that down pat. In the 20 first century, we also have a responsibility to create a physical, or create physical solutions that can help solve. Lingering social and economic issues lest we risk repeating those same mistakes and passing those same issues down to the next generation. I it seems like we're doing, many other things these days. So I offered up a few potential solutions from my own work and advocacy to help intervene. Most of these solutions are anchored in empowering folks to do the things that need to be done. By removing procedural obstacles. Easing the cumbersome nature of those procedures. In the final item I listed the last time I gave this talk acknowledging the truth embedded in that is the concept of equity. Excuse me. And equity in all this forms. But in this context, what I mean is a racial equity within urbanism. Racial equity within the form and space of our built environment. This is the element that I want to spend the bulk of our time this afternoon chatting about because I firmly believe. That a true rededication and restoration of core cities. And towns that we've built already cannot fully happen without addressing equity issues caused by the built environment itself by urbanism. Now I acknowledge. Before you all that this again, as I mentioned before, that this word equity has unnecessarily become politically charged and is often taken out of context these days when talked about In simple terms, equity is anchored, is simply anchored in truth and awareness, justice and fairness. Nothing more, nothing less. And so to describe my definition of equity. I usually use these couple of slides. And so when we talk about equality, Just different than equity. It's sort of like Oprah giving out free stuff, right? You go to the Oprah show, you might go on that one day where you're luckily lucky enough where she's given out whatever whatever the most popular thing is in that particular day, look under your seat, it's it's the keys to a car, it's a book, it's whatever, right? Everybody gets the same thing. Okay, that's equality across the board. Okay. Separating equality and equity is this idea of a disparate impact. These are practices. Procedures that are at adversely affect one or several groups. People of a protected characteristic more than another group. Even though the rules are formally neutral and applied equally across the board. And so to mend these desperate impacts or these disparate impacts, excuse me. That's where equity comes in. Equity, this idea of simple fairness or justice in the way people are treated, acknowledging current or past harms and maladies, right? And so again, if we apply things equally. It's sort of ignores things that have happened in the past. It ignores the mechanisms the decisions that we've made to get to this particular point something needs to intervene to rim that and so so that things can truly be This is what I mean when I talk about equity. And so I want to run through some similar slides that I presented at our, our Congress a couple of months ago, but I want to provide a little bit of, sort of timeline analysis and contrast alongside these things that are happening as our cities begin to grow and develop. Excuse me and improve over time. I think this sort of paints the picture of how the, in the American context, our cities have grown, have developed, have increased in value, have benefited. Millions of people. But at the same time have done a lot of harm particularly to a black American groups and, and other people of color demographics. So here we are in the eighteenth century. In a general sense. The American city in in the eighteenth century is from a urbanistic standpoint is relatively efficient in terms of its walkability and it's ease of accessing the different things and in needs. Of of the daily life. Right? Mostly out of necessity, right? We didn't have cars back then. We didn't have trains back then and and so the precedent for designing this kernel of our cities. Is really steeped in tradition. Tried and true methods of city building and city planning, right? On top of that, uniquely, and this uniquely American system of investment from a public and private standpoint is taking shape, taking, taking form, right? Providing a stable framework for public investment and private citizens. To now own land for themselves and to build something for themselves that they can then pass down to their pedigree. Right? Simple, simple equation, simple formula, right? At the same time, this is happening. You have an entire population of people. Who were considered people at that time who exist in the land. But cannot benefit from these. From these mechanisms, from these institutions. They cannot benefit. from an urbanistic standpoint, they cannot benefit from the, the concepts of that we purport in a modern sense, these concepts of walkability and freedom to walk about and move and access goods and services. Right. I'm not just saying that, from hyperbole, this is coded in law. Through a set of laws that we now call slave codes or cold in some of the the West Indies or the Caribbean. Just about every, colonial and early American city before, slavery was abolished had a slave code. And essentially these slave codes. We're put in place to dictate. How this these enslaved Africans, the not African Americans yet, these enslaved Africans were to move about public space, how they were to interact with public space, how they were to live. And retreated on the land. There's 6 core concepts, through all, throughout all slave codes. But 4 of them, in my opinion, relate directly to the built environment. And those are restrictions on movement. Restrictions on social engagements. Establishments of slave patrols. Essentially the precursors to, policing systems. And the regulation of slave punishment. Now, how does this relate to the built environment? Was I stated before, there were restrictions on movement. The enslaved were not allowed to move about the plantation nor move about the city itself. Freely without a pass from their quote unquote white masters. Right? Restrictions on social engagements enslaved a person's were not allowed to gather in public space again without permission from their enslavers. Perhaps of most notable. egregiousness is the regulation of slave punishment. And this relates to the built environment primarily because these punishments. By law were mandated to happen in many cases, not in all, but in many cases were mandated to happen in public space. In the public square, the plaza, on the street for all to see. Similar to a spectacle, right? And this is the way we chose to use our democratic space. The space will be ordered to exchange ideas. I'm a firm believer that in a democratic society, I'm a firm believer that what we purport to do in public space is a direct reflection. Of what we as a society hold dear to. And these are the things that we're by law allowing to happen in public space. And these are just some of the more sinister examples of slave codes. You have the district of columbia which had a slave code for a time Oh, I think, was also one of the early ones to, get rid of them. But the 2 that are perhaps the most sinister again are the, the slave code of the Commonwealth with Virginia or the slave code of the Virginia slave code of 191705. And then the Bayesian slate code or the barbados like slave code, which are sort of used as boilerplate template, boilerplate templates for other slave codes. Across colonial, America. So I just wanna show a couple of excerpts and you guys can sort of read these as I showed them on your screen but these are just some of your screen. But these are just some of the Xers that would be in some of these are just some of the excerpts that would be in some of these border play slave codes that again are directly defining how the built environment. Is to treat. African ethnic people, pre, but also, the inverse as well. And so considered to be the most sinister of all these, as I mentioned before, was the Virginia slate code. And here are some excerpts from the Virginian instance and you can see in these early stages of the country's development. How these enforceable laws are dictating how enslaved Africans are to be treated in the public room. Having to gain permission to move around. I move about the city or the plantation. And dictate and mandate what happens if that permission from a master is not given or received. Laws that prohibit the gathering and fellowship. In the open and also the establishment of curfews. We also start to see laws that get credence to the murder of African ethnic persons. And the full acquittal of those murders, again, in public space. There are also laws that established that and outline the punishment if the authority of a quote unquote using the terms of the law here the quote unquote might white master was challenged or questioned by an enslaved black person. Why is this important? Again, because these mandated beatings, these lashings, these murders were often conducted in public space. On a street, on a square in a plaza or if they want private property they were done in a public manner. As any spectacle. As in, entertainment, for almost, right? And we can see remnants. Of that in our in our contemporary society. So let's move into the nineteenth century, right? We, we, were into the nineteenth century. We're now adding additional advancements in modernisms. Modern mechanisms to our cities, right? modern plumbing and sewer systems, electricity. Multimodal transit systems rail at various scales. A public school system gets invented in this particular time frame, housing diversity. Also arrives on the scene as well in this era, right? So there's a lot of things that are, you know, setting the stage. For, for good urbanism. and, for that to benefit for all people. But again, that wasn't afforded to a big swath. Of the demographic and when I say big swath particularly in the south I mean it So this is a diagram of that outlines the density of persons. In in America, enslaved persons in America, particularly in the South. And the the hot red areas are heavy areas of densities of enslaved persons. This is significant because what this is showing is that even though enslaved, even though, a white Americans. Were the ones that were able to realize the benefits of improvements and capitalize with the benefits of land ownership and improvements in the built environment. They were not the ones that dominated the land In fact, before the Civil War, African American occupied nearly 65% of all persons in the South. Population that is directly responsible for a crop at that time, that being cotton. which was half of the country's exports. At that particular time. A population that had the ability and knowledge to work the land and the know-how to extract value from that land in the form of its bondable harvesting props, yet could not. Benefit. In that labor. And yet this population have virtually no rights and certainly no political power. And so this 3 fifths rule, which was instituted into the, Constitution was a contradiction in that it for the first time at least acknowledged in part the humanity of an enslaved person. But did so without capitulating and giving in to humane treatment. The enslaved were tallyed up just like everybody else in the country. And we're counted as 60%. Of a full called white person which effectively amounted, at that particular time when there were less seats in the house to about 15 or so additional congressional seats given to southern states. As decisions were being made. Concerning the development and the planning and the modernization of cities. Black person's were exploited for political power while they existed on the land but could not themselves benefit from such power. They can not own property or land or realize the value of things simple things like modern electricity plumbing. They were completely excluded from the pursuit of American ideals. Yet were an integral part of that that part of the country at least existence, its existence. And just to show the benefits or the, the dominance of both. Enslaved persons in the crop that they were, utilized to harvest. This is a diagram taken from the gentleman, Mr. North. Who studied such things. And you can see over time, before the Civil War, the amount of enslaved persons, which is shown in blue. And the amount of bushels of cotton. That were produced and it gets so high that there's all almost a one to one ratio. That's how quickly or how valued and how steeped in the economy this particular cash crop was. Now there were obviously inventions like the cotton gin with which help produce and speed up the efficiency of these, the harvest of these crops. But this efficiency factor in terms of a ratio of a person. To how many bushels they were able to produce was heavily steeped in the economy of the country. No doubt, but certainly in the southern part of our country where most African ethnic people were living at that particular time. And so that brings us again to the nineteenth century as we move past civil, war, and begin to reorganize ourselves. That brings us to a variety of different things that begin to happen but chief among them for our purposes and studying the urbanism of it all in the built environment of it all is special field under 15. Which for the first time to my knowledge is the only time in america's history where the country has both publicly acknowledged. The wrong of slavery. And came up and put forth a proposal to make amends for that world. In negotiations with Union Generals, President and various representatives of the now African-american population or freedmen as they were called back then the government was prepared to equipped to equip a few recently slaves, a few recent, recently free slaves. With basic infrastructure to support themselves. A 40 acre plot. Agricultural tools and a mule. This is important because you have to consider the condition of most of these folks during the time of Reconstruction. Most of these recently free slaves cannot read or write. They cannot talk quote unquote proper English, right? They speak in a dialect, a Creole, a crayle. Right? Very, formatted language just sounds different. Many of these freed men are ignorant to culture and social norms. All have no wealth money or anything really of monetary value, maybe sentimental value, but not monetary value. But what they do have is a very intimate knowledge. Of how to work and live on the land. And this is exactly why they requested. Land to live on so that they can support themselves. As part of the spoils. Of them being free and them having an economic flora as Martin Luther King describes it an economic floor to begin to. Have the same opportunity to, to pursue their version of the American dream. So before special field order 15 can be enacted, President Lincoln was assassinated, President Johnson quickly rescinded the order and allowed those seceded states to reorganize themselves. Now we have to answer black codes, the advanced version of the previous slave codes. Similar to his precursor, black code sought to, exploitively tie black Americans. Now to the land as cheap labor only, this time ignoring the law. In the Constitution. Black holes are anchored in unrealistic labor contracts in vagrancy and vagrancy laws. And you can see some of the core concepts of what these black laws. Were attempting to do which was essentially re-established a a pre-slave state in after emancipation you could be you as a black person you were required to by law sign a labor contract with a again these are the words they use with a white master in order to get a job. Because you didn't have any tools, any wages that you might have earned from having that job were then given back to that quote unquote white master to pay for the tools that you had to use. To cultivate the land. And so what we find is that this is a mechanism that again ties African-americans back to the land, but doesn't give them a ladder. To which they can, sort of climb themselves. To venture into. Economic mobility. Right. And if you didn't sign a land contract, labor contract, excuse me, with a quote unquote white master. You could be jailed and then your services will be then rented out. By the jailers. To, plantations in the area. And so you ended up in the same place. Right. Because of the failed special field or if they've seen the establishment of black coats many freedmen and women faced a few options and some attempted to flee north. And West to more enlightened parts of the country. Most, however, took their chances and signed labor contracts with their previous enslavers. But there would be a courageous few that would try their best to realize the American dream. Now that they are free. And their full freedom by joining the military and using those wages in that experience to own land, to venture out and own land for the very first time. It's here in the 18 seventies. At the tail end of the century where we see the first instances of black towns and black townships that were found. The first instances of urbanism that is influenced in finance almost primarily by African-americans. These early all black towns were modest structures and enclaves, similar to the European colonial outposts a few century centuries early years. But it was theirs. Like most times these small increments and interventions were laying the groundwork for something bigger to happen in the future. A concentrated area, to develop so as to sustain and create value. The towns were molded after the very places that African-americans were not allowed to be in without permission. Virtually none of these black towns exist today. A great deal of them, excuse me, were completely destroyed and burned to the ground. Thousands of black Americans died in the process. Reasons were politically motivated. In particular, these these cases that I'm showing you here, you have voter suppression and retaliation in Hamburg. Hamburg, South Carolina, you have essentially a kuday tie in Wilmington, North Carolina after the first black persons were elected to local office. And then in Tivo, the cause was over fair pay and work treatment by employers. What this error represents though is the first time as American citizens that black Americans unconstitutionally had their life. Their land, their property, their homes, their communities, their urbanism. Taken away from them. In addition to the moral issues with it. So now that's in on the twentieth century. Wrap up here. Where, we get a variety of different additions to our, public society. Many of them that we would debate. In a objectively in a contemporary sense but nonetheless at the beginning of the twentieth century the country again is expanding. But expanding in a controlled way in a in a still somewhat sustainable and efficient way. Still multi modal still building new roads and things of the such to support car infrastructure right but still not completely taken apart as we would know these cities to become. In the future. At the start of the twentieth century though as it relates to the built environment, the urbanism and its relationship with African-americans and other people of color. African-americans would again as they did in the later nineteenth century would again in the beginning of the twentieth century try to build a coherent, as we call the coherent and stable physical framework for themselves. Excuse me, now only 50 and 60 years removed from slavery. Surely African-americans can start to be seen as citizens in theory and in practice now. The opportunities came in places, in the city that Lamb was deemed to have no value. These lands were often in low lying areas swamped or flooded areas adjacent to railways and never in the heart of the city at the particular time which is where again at that particular time with the most valued land was. This is the case for Mr. Oti. Who is the founder of Greenwood and Oklahoma and I'm using Greenwood because it's probably the most famous example, but there are many other examples of this. But Mr. Ottawa G Girl, who purchased the 40 acres or, 40 or so acres, and founded Greenwood, Tulsa, Oklahoma. It's important to know that the creation of the black community. Black communities at that particular time was not one out of desire. African-americans, I think at large, we're not waking up and saying, oh, I wanna start a black town. These towns were begun and founded out in necessity. Because the urbanism that did exist didn't allow them to contribute or participate. The reason they exist is the direct response to the racism at that time. That was prohibiting black Americans from building their lives amongst the rest of mainstream society. A truly American thing, a truly American thing, excuse me, deemed UN-American because of the skin, skin color of the person in that particular American pursuit. And so here, Ottawa G Girly began a Greenwood, incrementally. With a few modest mainstream structures and houses. The first was, was a boarding house, the image that you see at the top of your screen here. That was primarily meant to house migrants. Coming up from a particular area, Greenwood, Mississippi, which is where the Greenwood community in Oklahoma gets its name from. Some of the first migrants to that particular area were, former slaves or children of former slaves that came from the Greenwood Mississippi area. In the span of about 25 years, Greenwood. Under the leadership of Ottawa G. Girlie and some of his other, black investors. Grew into a vibrant self-sustaining community. And had all of the essentials required for any modern town at that particular time. It grew to a community of over 10,000 residents. There was a brick lane company that supplied all the building materials and lumber yard that supply all the building materials for the structures within its confines. In starting a dedicated Brick Lang in G, because the the the one that already exists couldn't be accessed by african americans there was a Y.M.C.A. theater a black owned transit network. Buses, there was a pool hall, barbershops, auto repair shops. Many other goods and services, everything that you needed was here in Greenwood. Schools, churches, black hospitals because the the regular hospital didn't attend to African Americans. Ottawa G Girly, at himself in this 25 to 30 year period amass the diverse real estate portfolio at that time valuing about 8 million dollars. In value. What's represented like many towns like it. with thousands of black families, individuals finally being able to find a space in a America to build their lives and move up the economic ladder just as their white American counterparts had hundreds of years ago. For them, this was the American dream. Greenwood, again, like many others, became a 35 block haven. For black Americans at the turn of the century. And it took 18 h to destroy 25 years worth of savings, scraping, building, planning, planting, and praying. 25 years of good quality urbanism. In this particular instance, it happened exactly on my birthday, May 30 first, 1921. Between around 50 million dollars of legally insured private property. Was brought to rubble. Those homes those 10,000 residents were completely destroyed nearly all the businesses were lost Hundreds of land owning, tax paying American citizens were brutally beaten and killed in public space. In. Over the unimproved accusation that a young black team fondled a young, a, a young black team fondled a young, unimproved accusation that a young black team fondled a young, white woman in an elevator, which A, a, a, of white Americans deployed almost a warlike assault on the neighborhood, including arson shooting and yes. Even dropping makeshift bombs. Both Gurley and his partners. Lost most of their fortunes, completely wiped away. Insult added to injury the insurance agents that insured these buildings. Would not fulfill the property loss, of the value of the property loss in, in damage claims filed by the black hole motors and the commercial landowners. In terms of the property that they lost in this particular massacre. In the end, there was no recompense. There was no prosecution under law, even though all the proper channels were followed. These citizens were now refugees in their own land. Again, Millions of dollars of wealth consolidated in these 40 acres, in northern Tulsa were wiped away. From an entire generation of 2 Excuse me, a tired generation or 2 of African Americans. Again, many of them, remember being former slaves or with the children performlessly. So we're only 50, 60 years removed from slavery at this particular point. And again, Tulsa, Oklahoma, or Greenwood, Oklahoma is. Certainly not the exception. Alright, this infamous backlash against black towns, communities, black urbanism occurred all over the country. North and South and it happened hundreds of times. These are just some of the instances. Well, society is benefiting from these increasing improvements and investments into the public realm as we see on the diagram left black Americans. Are prohibited from living alongside their fellow white Americans. And are having their neighborhoods destroyed unjustly. Millions of dollars of value lost in an uncompensated for and thousands of lives lost. Alongside the destruction of physical property, there is also the brutal loss of life. And although harsh to look at I bring it up in this context for one reason and one reason only. Because these are happening in a public forum. These are happening in the spaces in our squares, in our docks, on our docks, in our streets. For everybody to look at in as a public public spectacle. These are these are the methods that we chose to use to exude our values. And how we chose to use public space, how we chose to use our urbanist. And so anchoring the latter part of the twentieth century was the creation of modern zoning. There are isolated examples at this particular time. Isolated examples of race based zoning at the turn of the century, chiefly in Los Angeles and in the Bay Area against Chinese immigrants, and also African Americans. But in Baltimore, it represents the first time a citywide comprehensive zoning law based on race. Was voted. Baltimore's initiative influenced other cities to pass seminal laws to regulate the influx of African-americans into their cities. The city of Atlanta. Made it popular, the now familiar race districts that correspond to a specific geography. In all instances, zoning was needed, as it was purported at that time. Zoning was needed to protect public peace to maintain law and order to limit civil disturbance to protect against disease. This is this in genuine because it is not black Americans who are the one disturbing the peace as it were. After a few run ends with Supreme Courts across the land, the groundwork was made clear for standardizing zoning across the country that was able to meet. Excuse me, that was able to get around the racial bias mentioned in it or so it seemed. As law professor Ernest Freud states. Well, zoning masquerading as an economic measure. Made manifest by restrictive uses and dimensional standards and partial minimums was the most reasonable means of accomplishing the same in that is zoning in cities based on race and ethnicity. In the foundation of our current system for zoning was born. Motivated primarily by a need to control, restrict, and regulate black Americans and other and indeed other immigrant groups as well. In the built environment with zoning. There was now a legal way to predefine the character and quality of a neighborhood bounded by invisible walls. Zoning could dictate who could live where and what the value of those places could potentially be. And that leads us to. The end of the twentieth century. As again, we're realizing that a lot of those initial investments are older now. And we need to re-up, we need to re-up at this particular time. We need to reinvest, right? But instead of doing that. and reinvesting in those core cities, we make the decision to expand our, to re-establish new places, new outposts with new infrastructure. And to leave the ones that we've invested in at the onset of the beginning of our society. Essentially to, degree. And this is where most of our contemporary conversation begins. The conversations that we've been having as urbanists. Or in, even outside of CU, just the general. The conversations about equity tend to be tend to begin at this particular area era in the fifties. And completely disregard all the things that we've just talked about. Rather swiftly, that happened before that led up to this point. As cities expanded and sprawled outward from their dense inefficient cores. A successive series of maps for most urban areas, large or small, were created to guide and guess restrict the both environment. These maps are not to be isolated. But they are to be looked at in concert with one another as they build upon one another adding additional layers as they build upon one another adding additional layers of protection. Or restrictions depending on where you are within that map. A common phenomenon is the uncanny relationship between the HLC or redlining maps. And their predecessors, the first zoning maps proceeds. Whereas the latter zoning maps dictate where who and who can live where and what they can build. The 4 more, these redlining maps establishes a national valuation system. For those built environments. In the Atlanta example, black zones fall directly inside those red hatch areas, which is the map on your left. You can sort of see that sort of saturated area. That is where African-americans based on zoning were allowed to live. Based on the law and it just so happens to fall directly within the redlining of the red line areas or the lowest value land areas. And the the inverse is true for for our fellow white Americans, right? The zoning maps, these variations on zoning maps are guiding the development patterns of our cities. Moving into the fifties and the next successive layer of map, of mapping, excuse me, came in the routing of our national interstate system. Using zoning and HLOC maps as a guide seemingly. and through imminent domain was used to confiscate land and property inhabited and in some cases owned by African-americans and as well other undesirable immigrant groups. How ares typically ran through black inhabited both environments or black inhabited urbanism. While running around the perimeter of areas that were primarily held by a working class in blue collar, white Americans. Detroit is a great, my own town is a great example of this. And again, these are just one offs, but this phenomenon. You can find a variation in part one full of these, this sort of phenomena and just about every city where you have these sort of maps that were put into practice. A couple of slides here and then we'll end. So when we talk about the, mid twentieth century and the subsidies that undergirded these zoning maps and these variations zoning maps. And the urbanization in the redevelopment and the expansion of our core cities or some might say the flight away from core cities. The subsidies differ depending on where you are located in the built environment. First and second wing suburbs got economic incentives facilitated through the various forms of zoning to build on and maintain private homes. Which then became the primary mechanism for building wealth in America. In the city, the older parts of the built environment where land was confiscated to boat highways. Subsidies were used to build rental models where a good deal of folks had previously been owners. Many of the private home owning opportunities are still around. And we're able to be financially leveraged by their owners. In other ways down the line. For example, many of the levied towns that were built in this era have increased and held their value multiples over. The true, the same cannot be said for those. in the, in the core cities that were sending around rental options. Many have fallen into disrepair and, have been demolished. As is the case with the Brewster Douglas Frederick Douglass Housing Project in in my hometown. So folks argue that these practices were unfair. At this particular time they were unequal they were unequitable the same opportunities to build to stand and grow. In the chosen built environment of that particular individual's choice was not given to many black Americans. They spoke out They petition, they protest. And what happened, it seems, is a cyclical thing. Similar to the past it seems when some try to speak up and change things they again paid the ultimate price for it in both life and in property. I'm careful to talk about death in this particular forum again because again, this is not a civics class. But the assassinations and the murders and the violence I give voice to, in front of you, is not because. Because they're, you know, extremely important. Which they are but it's more so because of where they happen again these are happening all of these each of these happen. Either in public space. Or in a public form where many are watching. They occur publicly in public space and in front of the bad drop of the buildings and in the stages of our streets for all to see. And that again ensued another round of, destruction of private property, etc, etc, right? We've seen, we've seen that happen on before. And so here we are as we come to a close. So here we are on the 20 first century. We didn't have the opportunity to fix and invest. Into the places that we've already built or continue to keep our great urbanism. On the hour perimeter where only a few folks can reach them. I'll be the first to acknowledge that there are slight nuance to this maximum. There's slight nuance to achieving this. For example, because of our change changing climate, it may not be viable to continue to build in certain areas. Of our cities that makes complete sense and that's a topic for another on the part bench. But by and large, a complete reinvestment in core cities is warranted. It matters because the decisions that we've made since the eighteenth century. And beyond have shaped and continued to influence the both environment of today. And as I've, attempted to show. In 30 min 300 years of history which is impossible the built environment has historically been harmful to black Americans persons of color and certain undesirable immigrant groups generation after generation. Urbanism in all its venerations, in all its variations, excuse me, good or bad. Throughout the years has been used to staunch and limit the economic vitality and community stability of black neighborhoods. This is why Equity is so important. The effects of the past we still feel today. Some of this stuff is still happening. And so here are just a couple of facts. Of the ramifications of previous decisions that we've made began beginning in this case beginning in the 19 thirtys. So, 74% of neighbors that were originally rated at, as red line or essentially having no value. Are still today valued or have families that live in them that exist. either below a low income, financial rate or below the poverty line. With that, 65% of those original neighborhoods, again red line. Our steel to this day primarily, minority, demographics, at least 50% of them, meaning that at least 50% of those regions. Contain people of color. Right. So again, we've, we've gotten rid of those practices 50, 60 years ago, right? But we're still in a contemporary society in contemporary urbanism still filling the ramifications and the effects of those decisions that we've made. 50. Plus years ago. And so considering the protest and the spectacles of today in the built environment, it seems we are merely running through a cycle again. We do ourselves in this service if we separate them from the motivations of the past and the historic treatment in the built environment that these. I am not here as I like to say I'm not here to promote the means and methods. Of these demonstrations, right? Or I am only here to affirm the message behind. And that the message has root that and excuse me, in that the message has roots that are centuries deep. It's I love to believe that you can't talk about stuff that's happening contemporary since without looking at the precedent. That help influence that. The same can be said not just for our buildings, but how we use our space. It even extends to the use of our public spaces in our streets in our squares. That hold the built environment together. The built environment used historically and concurrently as a stage for public humiliation. And punishment. What's visibly different now is that these decisions made by our previous generation of leaders and policy makers are now affecting everyone, not just black Americans and people of color. Yes, the economic drivers in these towns no longer exist as they did when they were founded, but so too are gone. And remove the mechanisms that afforded towns the ability to adapt to changes in economic climates and changes in technology. Thousands of cities across our country are frozen in time. Because of past decisions about urbanism, which I argue were chiefly racially motivated at the time they were enacted. Now, in a contemporary sense, we can't provide housing. We can't support small business. We can't invigorate our main streets. And we have established a pattern of devaluing land in the core of cities to the point where nothing gets done. And so I'll end with this these last 2 slides. For me, on a personal level in America, the only way it makes sense. Is if it makes sense. Thank you. Thinking about the myriad of times that African-americans and other groups. Per person of color groups in America. Have attempted to pursue their desire to build something for themselves and the equal amount of times those desires have been forwarded. Through unconstitutional violence through public policy. and through economic disincentives. Signifies to me the myriad of times that black Americans have had to begin again. Through no follow their own. But we can sometime get distracted from the real metric here, which is not only who can own and harness who can own land and who can harness a piece of the built environment who can own and harness a piece of the built environment. But the real metric here is who can capitalize and realize the value of that physical framework. And the quality of the public spaces that hold it together on the periphery. Home ownership today is still the primary metric to evaluate. Individual Americans wealth and financial equity. The rate of home ownership for all demographics has steadily increased since the 1920. African-americans since they were allowed to own land have always trailed their fellow white citizens by at least 20 points. That's sort of hailed consistently across the years. And since the heyday of the FHA and the VA loans that funded the suburbs of America, the rates have remained relatively stable. So still 20 points back. Behind, many white Americans, but relatively stable across that, span of time. But again, this is not the metric that we should be looking at. Which much more concerning is the value placed on that ownership. These are again contemporary byproducts of previous decisions that we've made. So yes. Because the, the stability of persons of color African Americans. In terms of their ownership and their buy in. Of the built environment has remained consistent. But because of the decisions that we've made. Sixes with the decisions that we've made. Over the years. The value of that ownership. Is completely off the rails in terms of. When you compare those that were able to benefit from those policies and those that were not able to benefit from those policies. In a contemporary sense. And I will leave you with this slide. A slide that I show before, but, but I think is a good one to end on. So since the very moment of. Our great country realized in granted, at least in theory, citizenship and humanity towards African ethnic population. Black Americans have struggled at large to find a respite where they can operate in the pursuit of the American dream unencumbered. Similar to how, again, their white countrymen did in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. The land is littered with the remnants of these attempts to do so. Spanning centuries. Although some of these instances seem far away, it's really not. The oldest person, for example, the oldest person. Who had an enslaved parent only died 2 years ago. Which is crazy to think about. At a bare minimum, we must invest in cities. And acknowledge what happened there before we intervene. And I talked about that before. Whatever it may be. And these these instances will vary from place to place. But in going beyond, I see cities taking up the mantle. And their policy makers. To study and debate what it restorative program would or could look like in the 20 first century. This again is a debate for another another time. And so that I will. Leave you and hopefully we can have some conversation around questions. Oh, I didn't mean to stop sharing that. Okay, we can put it back up. Yep. Sorry about that. Alright, there we go. Alright. Well, thank you, Marcus. We, that's a tall order to go through. 300 years of complex history. You know, in less than an hour. You did, you did well as I, had no doubt. We have, I know folks that we are at the hour mark and some folks may have to peel off, but if you have questions, please go ahead and add those into the QA down at the bottom of your screen. I'll be going through those. We have a little bit of time. We're able to go over just a little bit. And if you aren't able to stay on for your question, then, there will be a recording of this webinar and, you can see your question answered after the fact. And, I wanna thank Marcus as a, as a board member at CNN. I'm the president of CNU, Mallory Badges. this is a conversation that is, you know, it was so well received at Congress. I thought that you know I heard a lot of feedback from folks that they were really grateful to see the connection. Of equity into our practice that Marcus, was able to give us on the main stage on Saturday. And likewise, Mitch Silver, another CNU board member who will be recreating his main stage, his CNU, 31 main stage presentation in October. So stay tuned for that. On the Park Bench in October. but there was a lot of feedback that folks wanted to have this readily available that, you know, the, The way of thinking about the racial and social challenges that cities face. In the context of our own practice is something that's, you know, needs benefits from repeated reminders if we already have some of this history and also that there are so many layers to the history. That, we are, you know, it is, that we must educate ourselves on and I'm gonna start with a question for you Marcus because you brought up my home city in in your in your remarks when you were talking about the historical marker for special field over 15, which is here in Savannah where I am about the historical marker for special field order 15, which is here in Savannah where I am located for folks that don't know. I live in Savannah, Georgia. And, that marker is in Madison Square, which is one of the 22 famous squares of savannah. And, as I was thinking about that marker and some of the, some of the, points you made. Throughout this presentation is Nervous, we really focus on the, you know, the significance of the public realm and its impact on quality of life. And as you point out, the use of or even the access to the public realm creates It over history has created different lived legacies with very different meanings for white communities as opposed to other communities. And so I wanna ask you what ways do you perceive new urbanists could incorporate that understanding into our work, you know, how can we consider the inequitable relationship to the public realm that we inherit when we work on that? Portion of urbanism. When we offer design of those faces, how might we consider that we talk about the public room? Dare I say we glorify the public room often and that may have implications to how our message is being received by different communities. I think, you know, they're certainly good examples here in Savannah just, Gosh, this past week. Last week, the, the approval of renaming what was formerly Calhoun Square into Taylor Square, which is named after the first black nurse during the Civil War. Hmm. But that, you know, is feels like Pittance compared to the the legacy that many of these public spaces may carry in so I wanted to sort of probe you a little bit about that you know from a design perspective and from a communicating perspective, how can we do better as New Orleans? Yeah. So I, and I think it's good to separate it that way too, Mallory. From a design perspective, but then also from you know, maybe a more personal perspective from a design perspective, at least one of the things I try to do. Whether it's a project for building, the individual piece of architecture or, and especially if it's a project that has to do with some level of neighborhood design. Even if the clients weren't or the people that I'm working with weren't, going. Going to do it before, I always advocate for starting with level setting with history. Primarily because, and, and I've seen this just from, my own family and interacting with other, with other in other communities where predominantly African-americans live. Again, I mentioned in the top that it seems like a lot of this stuff is far away. But, one of the One of the strongest. Sort of mechanisms and I think African-american culture is this idea sort of storytelling. Hmm. You know this idea of passing down things that happened in families from generation to generation, primarily because that's one of the only ways that we could document. You know, what really happened. Right. And so I think that that still plays forward in today. And so I say that to say that when we're going into some of these areas that have these sort of storied histories and you think that you know, we're 100 years moved from, you know, when Tulsa happened or, you know, whatever. Whatever massacre happened near you, right? It's not really that far in the minds of the people that have been there for decades, right? And so. I'm amazed that how much in roads, how much social equity I can build with people. Just by acknowledging. The instances that happened. Before I even got there. And I, as a, as a black person myself, I find myself being an inside. I remember. When I was working with a D. RUTH, a dining down in Atlanta. You know, I, even though I was a black person, I was still an outsider from that particular area, right? I don't know anything about what happened here in Atlanta. I didn't have to live through that, right? And I perhaps perhaps the same thing can be said for somebody if they if they came to Detroit, right? And so across the board as designers and practitioners. A lot of, a lot of inroads and a lot of trust can be built from just by acknowledging the work. And then I think the piece after that is what I've sort of ended on on this slide is the work that a lot of designers, planners, and policy makers are beginning to take up now. Trying to attach to the built environment. Incentives similar to how incentives were attached to land and buildings. You know, less than a hundred years ago to help build and undergird our built environments, right? Another round of that. In some form, you know, I think that's up for debate, but another round of that sort of incentive from a restorative standpoint, I think are actively being debated and molded around in the psyche of a lot of our societies today, which I think is very, is very, exciting for me because again it's It's it's people. You know, I not say the country, but it's people within the country actually realizing that, Hey, there's something wrong here. And, you know, if we are trying to. Be proponents of urbanism. In urban places, then this is what it's gonna take, right? We gotta, we gotta try to. Make recompense for some of the stuff that happened. In the past because that's the byproduct of what we're dealing with today. Yeah, absolutely. Well, you, you've led into a question that our friend Matthew Petty raised, which is, you know, talking about modern reparations, like what does that program actually look like and like you say it some communities are are navigating this Evanston Illinois I know is working through a program and example that you know comes to mind but Matthews question is would it be different if Hmm. it's implemented by a municipality rather than at the state or federal level just sort of thinking about the subsidiary of government and you know where does where do these lessons land Who is responsible or who has the means? It may not even be the responsibility exactly, but it's the mechanisms or the policy means to be able to enact these changes. Yeah, and that's such a great question. And the short answer is I don't have an answer. Yeah. But the slightly shorter, or slightly longer answer is that, on the surface and in theory I think you know whoever had a part in doing the harm is also responsible for making amends. Now again, that but again, that looks different depending on where you are as you mentioned. You know, cities and states are in different conditions, right? And so what that means to me is that these reparative measures will look different and I think they should should look different. I think, I think we also erroneousously get tied up in reparations strictly meaning cash. Which I think is is not the way to look at this right and and and I applaud those cities. In states across the country that are beginning to take up the mantle to discuss this because alongside perhaps a small. Cash incentive, right? Put that to the side. They're also debating all these other things. That could help realize a a financial value but do not come in the form of cash, right? You know, things like tax incentives. Yeah. Tax breaks. I think, have a those states and cities that have land banks have a critical role to play here. In these conversations, right? So I think it takes on a different forms in different places. And it may be that you know certain cities partner with with the state with the states right I mean states get their zoning power from from the since we cities get their zoning power from the states right and so that's sort of the lineage of how these things got enacted. And I think there's a partnership there. That can help to repair that. And I think it's up to the people within those cities and states and those leaders. To figure out, A, what can be done. and how we can get it done, right? But again, I'll just stay for the fact and I'm happy to say that it's happening here at in Detroit where I live too. Which is fantastic. But, you know, again, they'll just take on different shapes and forms, depending on where you are. In the country right and as I think they should is different maladies happened in different places right and different in different magnitudes as well. Yeah, yeah, it is newer than us. We understand the importance of context, right? This is this to make some stuff. So that sort of leads me into a question of context, right? This is, this should make some stuff. So that sort of leads me into a question Stephanie Buffalo had, which is so, Say you have 30 min with Secretary Secretary of, housing and urban development. Hmm. What points do you make to her? What would you like to ask from her? What would you like to ask from her that would that would change the way cities address the racial harms of the past. Yeah. And Stephanie coming with the ringers. Yeah, that's a really good question, Stephanie. If I had 30 min, I think it would be a question centered around. The idea of reparations and this is not to say that a repair the program is to be funded by the federal government i'm not saying that but i think one of the things that Hey, federal government can do is be a champion. For, certain things. Particularly from the executive branch right you know i think you know, part of being executive is to be. A representative of moral good, a representative of the direction that we should shoot to achieve, right? And so I think that's where organizations or departments like hood can sort of play in this discussion that we're having is. The fact that we need to be having these discussions for XY, and z and what that would look like you know maybe some sort of campaign. Similar to what we're doing here where you know we're giving folks the information to which they can use to Make decisions, make policy decisions at the local level. Yeah. Right as they see fit, right? So I think we'd have we'd have a real conversation about that and and I'll I'll put a button on that to Also mentioned that it was Just some folks are aware and you already mentioned it as well that the one repairative program that we almost got off the ground. Was won by the federal government with special field order. 15, right? So there is a role for, our, national government to play. Perhaps a little bit different than, it was, you know, 160 years ago. Our politics are different now. And I think as as all things need to change to reflect that, but that doesn't mean we can't get anything done. Yep. So, I have a couple more questions here that are a bit of a blend of some questions we got, one of which, Sarah Baldwin brought up, but I've seen the thread in a couple of different ways. Thinking about social inequity, social inequality and other groups in in the public and in the larger urban public, the unhoused recovery communities, low income, etc. They, these are these are groups that may be growing in cities across the country and they, in what ways do you think that their, their parallels in what ways are their divergences and from the inequities of racial groups in our cities and how cities might respond as a result. Yeah, that's a really complicated question because in some in some respects I think some of these are sort of offshoots. Yeah. Of the sort of larger picture of inequity, right? Like, you know. And indeed, you know, talking about populations like the unhoused or just low income people that that sort of demographic It's. Expands the entire spectrum of people, right? And so I think that that sort of complicates and complicates it in terms of, strictly being a racial thing. Yeah. But, I do think, I just have a thought and I just lost it. I do think that there are There are similarities here, right? I mean, again, we're talking about going back to this idea that I talked about in terms of equity, right? And equity being used as a tool to make things equal. Which is how I look at equity right so that things are equal, right? And so, what our What are, and again, it's kind of. Hi, local, but it's not because I mean, you know, we're probably Maybe one of the reasons why we can't provide quality housing for folks is, you know, one of the reasons is because of, you know, old policies that restrict us from doing other stuff. Yeah. The other element of that is just is expensive to build, right? So there's all these other elements. And I think this is where local cities municipalities counties can sort of can sort of play a role with that. Yeah. And sort of being equitable from that perspective, right? But so I think without without running the risk of like being on wind that I think there's a relationship there. Hmm. But, I think there's a little bit more nuance that that that needs to go into. Figuring out exactly what that is. Yeah, yeah, I think that's fair. So that sort of leads me to what I'm gonna leave as our final question. And it has to do with how you open the presentation and thinking about new organism as a movement. And we have, you know, this is our thirtieth. Anniversary this year. We have been working to enact the principals of the charter for 30 years. And, you know, you, quoted the piece about standing for the restoration of existing urban centers and towns within coherent metropolitan regions and you know talking about the the sort of framework that we look at cities from. So my question and I'm gonna add a piece that Dan Hoyt suggested in the comments. My question to you is, what do you think our biggest obstacles are to you is what do you think our biggest obstacles are to that mandate? What do you what do you see as the biggest opportunities for reinvesting in the cities that we may not have made as much progress on over the past 30 years. Hmm. You when I don't think you said it today, but I, it is emblazoned in my mind, at CNU, 31, you talked about islands of Fantastic and that we have these really excellent examples of urbanism that New Orleans have produced and they're very isolated from each other. And how do we get that carpet to be more inf? You know, what do you what do you see as the obstacles to that? What do you see as the opportunities or is Dan Hoyt said in the in the comments? What does success look like? 30 years from now. Yeah. Yeah, great question. I'll start with the back end, which is what success looks like. I think success looks like us. If I were to take an archetype and use as a model any mid tier city that's been Blown up maybe because of It's economic driver, it's initial economic driver leaving and then subsequent things happen to complete its sort of deterioration. Success would look like a full restoration of interpreted differently but a for restoration of that particular area. I look at. I like some of these great. New urbanist towns, which again, as an architect. Tr as an architect I objectively love. But the urbanist in me, or the urban designer in me, or been the pseudo urban planner of me. Okay. Takes slight issue with the location, right? When we have all these opportunities in cities. And that leads me to the reasoning, which is. It's just, it's just damn hard, you know what I mean? For a lot of reasons. I mean, there's a lot of one of my friends used to say all the time the more you allow something to linger The more it's gonna flourish, right? And so when I think about the issues that have. Arose in our cities. Over time and the subsequent chances that we've had to solve them all that's doing is just allowing those things to flourish right and so that's why it's so difficult to do it today, right? And I, much until somebody convinces me, otherwise I am a champion of incremental development primarily because as I showed in the presentation, that's exactly how we started these things. The first place. Whether they are colonial. The kernels of those colonial towns that have now grown into metropolises Boston DC Savannah all these places, they started off as little increments, right? The same can be said for those first blood towns. It started off as little increments. Right? I grew organically, right? And so What I think when we're trying to intervene into places that already exist, I think we're trying to use. A built out strategy. In a place they can't handle that. And that I, from my perspective, I think that's never going to work. It may work from a development standpoint. For that unitary project, but it's it's not going to help in terms of solving. Creating walkable places for all people, right? Because you're inevitably going to be pressing out more people, right? But when you build it incrementally, incrementally and organically. And in addition to that, and this is where a reparation conversation can happen. When you attach to that. Programs to support people doing stuff in their own neighborhoods. You can now begin to recreate that same momentum that happened in the seventeenth century with the kernels or ATEM century with those kernels of our colonial towns. Sort of, increasing in vibrancy and places like Greenwood, Tulsa, Oklahoma that began as a kernel and and it eventually grew into this vibrant neighborhood of 10,000 people. We didn't build it at once all at once. We built it in small increments. And allow people to intervene organically, which allows you to sustain that place sustainably. Right. And so that's what success looks like for me. Those are the obstacles. It's just hard and perhaps people don't wanna deal with certain people. But this is where I think a lot of us can begin to partner together, right? You know, some of us have certain skill sets that that others don't have. If we can agree that there needs to be that we need to focus on this issue. I think that's the, that's the harder part. The easier part is just getting the people, because we all know people that can help and we bring it on teams. We have the database of people within our, within our ranks to do the work. We just need to agree on what the focus of work needs to be. Yeah. I think that's it. That's a great point as you were talking. It reminded me that I think a lot of the time in my role since I've come into this role at CNU that I think a lot about doing better to make sure that a broader community can see themselves in the islands of fantastic, right? But I also think that it's important for those of us creating these islands of fantastic to be able to see our work in the Greenwoods because they they are similarly, you know, that's an example of a new town. Okay. Absolutely. It's a new town that met a catastrophic. And that's the sort of, you know, ownership of these legacies of creating place that I think we really need to bring into our understanding of creating place that I think we really need to bring into our Well, I think we have gone quite a bit over any final words, Marcus, that you want to share with Pax? I again, just wanna thank, you and seeing you and also the membership for allowing conversations like these to happen. You know, if you would ask me 10 years ago, as a person struggling to find a professional organization to be a part of as an architect. You know would I be able to start having conversations like this a the sort of larger umbrella of urbanism. I might not have believes you but to see that we're at least having these discussions and debates. Around facts. That happen and what to do about them, is very, heartening for me. So I think, want to thank you, Mallory and the rest of staff and also. My fellow urban is for, taking some time out today to, listen to me. Yeah. Perfect. Well, it was much more than that, and I wanna thank you on behalf of seeing you for recreating this presentation taking the time out of your day to reshare it so we could have it in posterity and for everyone who's still on thank you for spending some extra time with us today. The recording of this will be up on Cnu's YouTube channel and if there are any further questions that Marcus and I can answer for you, please feel free to reach out and otherwise I hope everyone has a wonderful rest of their day. Thank you so much and thank you Marcus for this wonderful presentation. Of course, of course. Thanks everybody. Thanks, y'all